Welcome to journey on. I’m D.J. Burr, the host and executive producer. I'm a licensed psychotherapist, behavioral addictions specialist, and best-selling author of, "I Just Wanted Love, Recovery of a Codependent Sex and Love addict," available on Amazon, audible, and iTunes. This podcast is for male survivors of sexual abuse and assault who want to experience a life worth living beyond a tragic past. I'm a survivor just like you and I know the complexity of healing from trauma and I also know the joy that comes from the healing process. Here are our stories and share your own. You are not alone! You two can breathe deep and journey on.

I encourage you to visit the journey on website at www.journeyonpod.com. There you will find a link to sign up for my recovery journey newsletter, learn about my day weekend recovery events for male survivors and my online recovery coaching services for male survivors.

If you have questions, concerns or comments or would like to be on the show, email me at journeyonpodccast@Gmail.com. Journey on his own social media. Tweet us @journeyonpod. Find us on Instagram and Facebook at journeyonpodcast.

The month of April is national sexual assault awareness month, sponsored by the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. This year, the SAAM Campaign is engaging voices. The focus will be on involving coaches, faith leaders and bystanders by preventing sexual assault. Many groups such as salt and he is same problem but they. With this year’s post cards, the NSVRC hope to help these voices talk about preventing sexual assault. You can download the toolkits and postcards as well as other support tools at www.nsvrc.org/saam/getinvolved. 

Look out for our social media post this month using the hashtag #SAAM and the hashtag #journeyon as we celebrate national sexual assault awareness month. I'll be looking for your posts with the same hashtags as well. You never know I might reach out to you as well and want to hear your story.
 
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D.J.                 Andre, welcome to journey on. I am pleased that you had some time to talk to us about your story. Can you tell our audience where you are and how old you are and then we can go into your story?
 
Andre             Sure thanks D.J.. My name is Andre Viscera. I live here in Honolulu, Hawaii. I was born in the state of Washington where you're currently at. I am 41 years old. I just turned 41 on Friday.
 
D.J.                 Oh, wow! Happy birthday! I hope it was fun.
 
Andrea           Yeah it was a good day. Just surfing in gardening and relaxing.
 
D.J.                 So, Andre, I found you online because I saw you were doing work around sexual abuse support in the legal system. Can you tell us a little bit about that before you going to your story?
 
Andre             I've been involved in some of the statute of limitations bills that have been going through the legislature here in Hawaii. Back in 2012 we passed window legislation, basically allowing for two years for survivors whose statute of limitations had lapsed to bring suit (civil suit) against their perpetrators. It took a few years. Vetoed one year. Then the next year we were able to pass it through the committees and it got signed by the governor. That lasted from 2014 and then in 2014 he got extended and that recently expired last year.
Whenever there is any other types of bills... There's another one that's related to criminal sexual assault against minors... Sorry, I don't know everything offhand, but that one was passed. Shoot! I think in 2014/15. Definitely helps survivors here in Hawaii find some, I don't know about closure, but at least some way to express themselves may be for the first time tell someone about the abuse. Bring suit. I know there was a lot of suits brought against the Catholic Church out here and other various organizations that were either complicit or not complicit in the abuse of children.
 
D.J.                 Is it your role as a... Are you an advocate of these folks who are coming forward, or are you sharing your story as well?
 
Andre             Yeah... There's definitely a lot of folks out here that it's their job, their policy folks at sex abuse treatment center or another part of the women's Caucus or Planned Parenthood so they don't have advocates there... I just wanted to provide a voice from a survivor point of view. I think it's important that the survivors just hear other survivors talking about it. Especially a survivor the kind of looks like them and may have gone through the same experiences of having the same Filipino family or local family that has the same values. I'm just trying to provide another example that people can look up to and know that there's a way out and that other people are suffering just as well and not to fill alone.
 
D.J.                 I'm sure they really appreciate it. I do too. We need more people to share their stories and that's why I created the Journey On Podcast for male survivors to talk about their experiences with the hope that those that are still suffering in silence will come to understand and realize and accept that they are not alone and to start the healing process.
So, Andre, can you tell us what happened and how that led you to the work you're doing now?
 
Andre             So, like I said, I grew up in Vancouver Washington... A couple of hours south of Seattle where you're at. At some point before junior high in grade school, my dad's son from another family from the Philippines came to live with us. We didn't have a lot of bedrooms so, we didn't have a lot of bedrooms so they decided that he should share with me, the youngest son. My older brother at the time was in high school. Teenagers - they're not gonna have any of that, there can weather privacy and whatnot. Figured it would be best to put them in my room. In hindsight, not the best thing.
He started to groom me and sexually abuse me for years. There's nothing I could really do about it since we were in the same room. Culturally, you're taught to respect your elders. I think maybe my parents thought that it be a good way for someone to watch over me and raise me but that's a lot of power to be given to someone that could be abused.
 
D.J.                 How much older was he?
 
Andre             He was like 8 to 10 years older. And there were threats of violence, like that. Not a lot of opportunity or being taught are encouraged to speak out, you know, kids, at least in my family, aren't really.... Made for being seen and not heard so to speak. You just don't pay the parents what they want. There's not a lot of dialogue and loving interaction. Anonymous say that's all Filipino families but I'd say most.
 
D.J.                 I can relate in growing up in an African-American family. From what you describe, it sounds very similar. There's just a lot of things you just don't talk about.
 
Andre             Yeah, definitely! You throw in some Catholic guilt and you have a recipe for a lot of stuffed down feelings for a while. Never confronting these difficult, difficult situations either with your family or yourself.
 
D.J.                 So, you were in junior high and?

Andre             Before junior high...
 
D.J.                 Before junior high...
 
Andre             I was in grade school.
 
D.J.                 Grade school. Okay.... I imagine that must've been very confusing to you and definitely had some impact in how you showed up in your social life and in your education. Can you talk about some of the things that happened?
 
Andre             The mind and the body is pretty amazing in just how it survives and what it does, of defense mechanisms. I should say. Just force it down and never talk about it again. I felt kind of fortunate because I was involved, (I don't know if today they even have these in school systems) highly capable or gifted and talented [where you] pluck out a few kids that are smarter and put them in a different class. So, I was able to hide in my books and be a smart kid just give my A's and not get bothered. My parents pretty much were just super busy in junior high and high school because I was a 4.0 student. I was involved in pretty much every sport in every season. I played music. I just a busy. What really kept me motivated was just knowing that when I was 18, I just need to get in college and get out of here.
 
D.J.                 So, you are staying busy and motivated about the future and that probably didn't look suspicious to those around you?
 
Andre             Oh, no! They were happy that they had a kid who was getting straight A's, playing music and in the choir. It seemed normal. Was running tracking going to state. For me, right? I am a... One of the few kids of color in my junior high or high school. I just wanted to get along. The last thing I wanted to do was bring up... I do want to be that kid who's like, "Oh yeah! He's the guy that got abused." You know, that's not something I'm going to do. You know? As a teenager, you're just trying to get along as it is. That was the last thing is to bring up. 
 
D.J.                 Had you known anyone in your life that are gone through something similar? Maybe you and seeing how the response was for them? Or did you just know to keep silent because of the perceived judgment that you might receive?
 
Andre             Well, you know how kids are. The guy who's, you know... Had green hair. Anything different. Anyone was can call you out and bully you are just showing you. Social creatures, right? So, you just try to act just as everyone else is acting and remain in the herd so to speak.
 
D.J.                 Okay
 
Andre             You see people, you know the outcasts. You want to be them right?
 
D.J.                 Absolutely! I can remember seeing people getting bullied and I definitely didn't want to be one of those people who were getting bullied so I kept my mouth closed about a lot of things too. I totally understand that.
It's difficult for me to really just understand how you were able to function so well in this home where you were being abused on a regular basis. It sounds like you have a very strong will to protect yourself. Would you agree?
 
Andre             Yah. I think. I don't know if it's a nature thing but I think some people are able to handle some adversity and are able to fight through it. I just feel fortunate that I was able to functionally survive. I definitely was functional but I wasn't thriving.
 
D.J.                 What do you think that would've looked like for you if you were thriving instead of just being functional?
 
Andre             Just being more aware of my feelings and just understanding who I was or just being able to use all my talents and what not. I felt like I was functional but operating it like 60%. I was holding back this heavy load that I was caring this heavy load that was away on you. I can't be at peak performance if you're dragging a boulder around.
 
D.J.                 That's true. 
At some point did someone notice that you are dragging a boulder?
 
Andre             Yeah. I finally told an ex-girlfriend of mine when I was living in Lake Tahoe. Yeah. It had been the first time that I told anyone. It was cathartic. But when you post something like that down for 26 or 27 years, it's tough to deal with.
 
D.J.                 She was the first person you told?
 
Andre             Right!
 
D.J.                 Man! That's a lot to bring to a relationship. Clearly you felt safe enough to be vulnerable. I'm glad that you had that experience with someone it was safe.
Did she have any recommendations on what you should do?
 
Andre             Yeah. It was kind of a mutual... She had told me that she was sexually abused as a kid, too. 
 
D.J.                 I see. That sounds like a probably impactful conversation.
 
Andre             Definitely.
 
D.J.                 So, you are able to trust someone enough to say this is my truth because you were hearing their truth as well. Then, what did you do after that?
 
Andre             I started seeing some therapists. We kind of shared a shared experience that bonded us in a way. It was kind of tough. There's definitely the focus on the darker side of feelings, the suffering it all that. Which, on one way it's kind of good remote that stuff, talk about it instead of letting things just well up, actually release some of that anger. At some point, you have to move forward, in my opinion and look at the positive.
 
D.J.                 It makes sense to me that you would need to talk about those really heavy emotions because you hadn't. Most people who are abused learn to stuff their feelings.
 
Andre             It's all secrets, right?
 
D.J.                 It's all secrets. It's toxic. You got shame, guilt, fear, sadness, which, in a normal situation, all of those are really basic things that we all experience, but we're talking about repressed feelings over an extended period of time, that's toxic in my opinion, in my opinion.
 
Andre             Definitely!
 
D.J.                 I can see it being dark.
 
Andre             I think the way I was able to be functional was to kinda go in my head, to really live in your head. You can lose touch with your body lose touch with those feelings. Understanding, when you feel something, how to describe that. Especially since the body was already violated, I just want to get away from all that. You have your brain, kinda creates this illusions for you to survive.
 
D.J.                 The brain is very powerful.
It sounds like your coping strategies were to suppress your feelings and also to stay busy. Did you have any others?
 
Andre             I was very active. I used to snowboard a lot. I ran a lot. I played ultimate Frisbee is a sport. I like to run. Surfing. I won't say I was an adrenaline junkie but there is something about rock climbing or snowboarding, you're just in the moment, right? You don't have time to think about what happens to you. You just in the moment or you're gonna fall off for rocker drown.
I feel lucky that I had those outlets. I also smoked a lot of marijuana and psychedelics to kinda get that same ego-less feeling. Living in the present, not boring about past things.
 
D.J.                 Did those substances become a problem for you?
 
Andre             A little bit. I was smoking a little too much. To the point, it wasn't... It was just a numbing of the pain.
 
D.J.                 A very deep pain.
 
Andre             Doing a lot of therapy. I probably gone through six or seven therapists just trying to find the right person - one would pass away or I'd move around and I'd switched jobs, switch insurances.
 
D.J.                 That can be a process. As a therapist, I know how challenging it can be for people to get in the door and then stay. Then for one reason or another, you may not be able to stay for a long period of time. I deftly understand that piece.
Can you talk about a significant experience in therapy? A lot of people have misconceptions about therapy. I think that therapy can be really rewarding and also challenging. I think it's helpful to hear people's perspectives about that process.
 
Andre             Probably one of the main things is you have to be kinda truthful. Lying to your therapist is basically lying to yourself and your pain this person.
[Both laughing]
 
D.J.                 Right.
 
Andre             Yeah, that part.
 
D.J.                 That happens a lot.
 
Andre             I didn't want to take it from just a pure financial standpoint but, you know? You get in what you put out. If you’re bullshitting him, then you’re bullshitting yourself or her. You're not getting much done.
 
D.J.                 That's true. When you went into therapy did you find that you were telling lies? Or were you always truthful?
 
Andre             I don't want to say telling lies but maybe it's taken a while to get to the root. I think the first couple of therapists, especially in the bay area, I focused more on identity and anger issues. The symptoms. Identity I think is a big thing. Just being, like I mentioned before, I'm one of the few people of color in my junior high/high school. I'm trying to find that source of who I was as an Asian American and moving to the bay area kind of brought that to the forefront. Every minority group has a, a voice there. It's a good place to be, but I was skirting the real issue and focusing on things like that because I didn't really wanna open up the box and talk about things really hurting. I just found ways. I was addressing issues but I wasn't really addressing the main, the main source. You know?
 
D.J.                 Did something happen that prompted you to finally reveal the truth so you could start working on it?
 
Andre             I'd always mentioned it but then I try to push the therapy in that direction. It depends on your therapist. Some will sit back and relax, listen. Some are more direct in pushing you in a direction, so. I just found that there wasn't a lot, or at least ones I found, that had a lot of experience with survivors of sex abuse. I was like, that is not your special day I'll talk about something else.
 
D.J.                 [Agrees]
it sounds like you finally found someone that could hear you, and help you.
 
Andre             Out here in Hawaii, the actually have a sex abuse treatment center, it's folks that, the name, have direct experience and expertise in that area.
 
D.J.                 That's amazing! I wish that every city and every state had a resource like that.
 
Andre             It was very surprising that I couldn't find anything like that in San Francisco. Then, of course, a lot of support especially from my wife. She's one who's been my rock and really been there for me in dealing with with all my shut.
 
D.J.                 At some point you told your family. What was the response?
 
Andre             You know? There was kinda disbelief. They're mad and angry. Wondering why didn't say something. The usual kind of responses
 
D.J.                 Did they leave you... At some point?
 
Andre             Yeah! They believe me.
 
D.J.                 Okay! Good. 
What happened with this half-brother anger stepbrother?
 
Andre             Half-brother. He still lives in I think Southern California. I've attempted to confront him. I wrote them a letter or whatnot. It was kind of weird. It was intercepted by his wife. So, I still don't know if he ever got at or if he knows that I know what he did and it was a right and just try to make sure that is not trying to do it to his own kids are the other kids.
I've tried multiple ways to try and get the message through but, you know?
 
D.J.                 You can only do so much because you have to continue to focus on your own healing and you made an attempt to reach out. I imagine that that was really hard for you and your family to have those types of conversations. I know that when disclosing abuse, people can be come, being disbelief. Sometimes that can seem like they don't believe you all. That can be hard to. I'm really glad to hear that your family heard you and that they believed you.
 
Andre             I think that the biggest thing is to have low expectations. Not to think that if I do this then everything is going to be great. Or this great family again because I disclosed something. That one of that doesn't change people's lives.
 
D.J.                 It makes sense to have low expectations or even no expectations. Speak your truth.
 
Andre             Definitely! You don't wanna think that, oh yeah this is going to make me happy. Well no. You realize just one step of many in a process.
All the work to get there seems like a lot but then there's still a lot of work after.
 
D.J.                 The always be a lot of work.
Did you use any other tools other than therapy in talking with your views? Did you go to any support groups? Or do any online meetings? Anything like that?
 
Andre             I went to one of the male survivor weekend of recoveries.
 
D.J.                 How is that?
 
Andre             Oh! Those are amazing. You know, your year in a weekend with 20 other guys that to some that's probably one of the first times to either disclose or even no other survivors. So is pretty powerful. To be just around. I don't how describe it, your tribe so to speak. Shared experience. You have no... When you have a disclosed, you think, you've suffered in silence, you suffered alone but just to have that bond with these other men there. It's pretty powerful. If you can do it, definitely go out and do one of their weekends.
 
D.J.                 Whatever the activities they have?
 
Andre             I think it's 20 to 25 mn and they broke you into smaller groups. They had some smaller group therapy. There's some walks. If that was your thing you can do some artwork to kind of workouts and feelings. Then you brought back to a large group and you did your team building activities and things like that.
 
D.J.                 Sounds like an amazing experience.
 
Andre             Yeah! It was in the Santa Cruz area so that's nice. They're all over America. I don't know if there can come to the West Coast again. It depends on funding.
 
D.J.                 It always depends on funding. That's an unfortunate part. It depends on funding.
Did you stay in contact with any of those folks?
 
Andre             No. Unfortunately. Tried to. It's just at the time just didn't materialize.
 
D.J.                 That's all right. It sounds like it was a great weekend experience and you got to meet a lot of different people and the experience that you had while you were there, you'll probably hold on to for rest of your life even if you're not in contact with those individuals. I think that's a really good thing for people to consider that if there's an opportunity to go to a mill survivor weekend retreat or some other type of workshop or something, I support that hundred percent. I think those can be really rewarding. I'm glad to hear that you had a really good experience.
 
Andre             It's just connecting, right that's the big take away from that.
Right now, I have a friend of mine that disclosed. We still talk. As far as I know, we are... It's interesting to have friends that you are friends before you disclose and then now kinda have a deeper relationship. You talk a bunch. You know talking about bull ship scores, right?
You not talking about the hoops. It's good to have somebody that understands.
 
D.J.                 it's good to have that experience.
I hope our listeners can have that experience as well. I strongly encourage people to share their stories. It's powerful!
The work that you're currently doing, I'm assuming that this is directly inspired by what you experienced. Can you talk about how you got started with your advocacy work?
 
Andre             So before that I just did a lot of advocacy with the environment, working with water quality issues and beach access. I had submitted testimony and testified at other bills that it gone through the Hawaii Legislature. And knew the process. I knew that when something important like this came up, I just knew that I had to do something. It's very cathartic. As part of the process too of recovery... Just getting out there and talking about it and getting interviewed by TV and radio getting the word out and just letting the legislatures know that survivor side.
 
D.J.                 That's how I found you, through the media, that interviewed you. It's definitely working.
 
Andre             Through the whole legislation, there's people who'd reached out and usually I just refer them to the sex abuse treatment center, you know not a therapist. And it's one thing if you are kind of years into it and we can talk about it and we can talk story but if you just disclosed, probably should some find some help. I'm there to be a shoulder but there's a lot of issues that are connected, but you're going to want to have some professional help. 
 
D.J.                 I agree. You'll need more support and services in the beginning. I'm glad that those resources are there.
Do you think this is working you'll continue to do?
 
Andre             Yes. Definitely. Depending on what's going on with legislation, when the opportunity presents to talk about it.
 
D.J.                 What if you learn through this journey, on this path you've been on?
 
Andre             Hmm... Just a lot. Does China think about the change that I've been through. Definitely one thing would be, it's not about me. Just so stuck in my head for so long that's, you just get really focused on yourself, right? Thinking that that you are this pain. You identify with it it's really not. It's just something that happened to you. The brain's pretty powerful attaches itself these things.
 
D.J.                 But you can move through it.
It is a journey.
 
Andre             It takes a while. The acceptance, the acceptance of what happened, the acceptance of learning that ability that or capability that your parents had to protect you. Everything.
 
D.J.                 I always say acceptances solution. I have found that to be true in my life. And someone had to tell me that. Because I didn't always know that. I have come to understand the world perfectly imperfect. We make mistakes. We don't always get the information that we need to show up for our families or our children or friends or our partners. So if we have the opportunity to learn something different, my hope is that will take it, will take that opportunity. It sounds like you've taken the opportunities to grow and to Journey On and to have a life worth living. It sounds like that's exactly what you're doing.
 
Andre             Recently, I've been doing a lot of, I think you asked about tools. I forgot about I've started doing some Rolfing which is starting to work with the fascia in the body. It's how the body can store a lot of emotion get you on the whack, get sure spine all out of whack. It's kind of painful but it's definitely getting me back in order. Definitely first survivors, I'd say do a lot of bodywork, yoga, massages. I know that can be kind of frightening just getting used to maybe someone else's touch, but it's very healing.
I have a Reiki Practitioner which helps with the energy and everything, keeping the flow, positive flow going. I'm staying active, surfing, and then meditating is pretty key. Being present. If you truly present, then you can't truly worry about what happened to you in the past, these horrible things and you can't really be stressed out about the future because you're here right now.
 
D.J.                 Be here now.
Well, Andre, I'm so grateful for taking the time out of your busy work day to talk to me and our audience about your experience and I think that your story is very impactful and inspiring and I know that people will be helped by your experience. I want to thank you for being a part of the Journey On mission which is to help people to tell their stories.
 
Andre             Thank you, D.J.! It's been great talking. Let me know if you need or want to talk store again.
 
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There is a new tool available to all of you Journey On followers, it's Journey On Survivors, a private Facebook group for survivors to network, build support, and discuss all things Journey On. You can find the link on our homepage, at journeyonpod.com or going directly to it at bitly/journeyonesurvivors. I'll be on the group to answer any questions or to provide support. Check us out.  bitly/journeyonesurvivors or search Journey On Survivors on Facebook.
 
Journey On is looking to hear from you. If you're interested in sharing your experience, strength and hope, email us at journeyonpodcast@Gmail.com for details.

Journey On's production is currently funded in whole by me as part of my desire to provide support for those who are still suffering. Production costs fluctuate and can be prohibitive in terms of what I can offer our audience. You can help support Journey On's mission by supporting the production. There are two options. You can donate the amount of your choice directly from your cell phone by texting the word journey to 855-735-2437, that's Journey to 855-735-2437 or you can become a patron of the show by setting up a monthly contribution by going to patreon.com/journeyon - that's patreon.com/journeyon. Once there, you can select a contribution level of your choice. Thank you for considering.

Don't forget to visit journeyonpod.com and sign up for my recovery journey newsletter. Once you have subscribed, you will get more information about my weekend mail survivor retreats and my online coaching services for male survivors.

Journey On is produced by D.J. Burr and Recovery Legacy Network, bringing you recovery on all fronts. Learn more at www.recoveryLegacynetwork.com.
 
Today's music features tracks by CDK and Airtone. You can learn more about the tracks from our website at journeyonpod.com. 
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Until next time, breath deep [inhales] [exhales] and Journey On.

Welcome to journey on. I’m D.J. Burr, the host and executive producer. I'm a licensed psychotherapist, behavioral addictions specialist, and best-selling author of, "I Just Wanted Love, Recovery of a Codependent Sex and Love addict," available on Amazon, audible, and iTunes. This podcast is for male survivors of sexual abuse and assault who want to experience a life worth living beyond a tragic past. I'm a survivor just like you and I know the complexity of healing from trauma and I also know the joy that comes from the healing process. Here are our stories and share your own. You are not alone! You two can breathe deep and journey on.

I encourage you to visit the journey on website at www.journeyonpod.com. There you will find a link to sign up for my recovery journey newsletter, learn about my day weekend recovery events for male survivors and my online recovery coaching services for male survivors.

If you have questions, concerns or comments or would like to be on the show, email me at journeyonpodccast@Gmail.com. Journey on his own social media. Tweet us @journeyonpod. Find us on Instagram and Facebook at journeyonpodcast.

The month of April is national sexual assault awareness month, sponsored by the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. This year, the SAAM Campaign is engaging voices. The focus will be on involving coaches, faith leaders and bystanders by preventing sexual assault. Many groups such as salt and he is same problem but they. With this year’s post cards, the NSVRC hope to help these voices talk about preventing sexual assault. You can download the toolkits and postcards as well as other support tools at www.nsvrc.org/saam/getinvolved. 

Look out for our social media post this month using the hashtag #SAAM and the hashtag #journeyon as we celebrate national sexual assault awareness month. I'll be looking for your posts with the same hashtags as well. You never know I might reach out to you as well and want to hear your story.
 
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D.J.      Welcome to another episode of Journey On. Today I am speaking with Joe Braxton. Joe, welcome to the show!

Joe       Hello I'm glad to be here.

D.J.      Thank you. Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule. Joe, tell our audience who you are and where are you and then you and I will go into your story,

Joe       Okay. Hey guys. I'm Joe Braxton from [the] Maryland, D.C. area. I just wrote a new book entitled "Still Breathing - How to Regain Your Life After Being Robbed." I am also the creator of Lapels for a Cause, enhancing your style with awareness, lapel pins, lapel flowers. 

D.J.      Awesome! It sounds like you're a busy guy.

Joe       I try to be. It helps to keep your mind off of things.

D.J.      Right! I'm glad you mention your book. I finished your book and your book is revealing. I mean, Joe, in his book, Joe is talking about his sexual abuse and the things that happened to him and what is life's been like since he came out about the abuse. So, I appreciate anyone who is willing to talk about their struggles and their survival. That is why I invited Joe to talk on today's show.

So, Joe, tell us. Where does your story begin?

Joe       [Joe laughs] I guess it would begin... I was... Well... You want to know how it began - the conception of it or how I... When it started, the abuse.

D.J.      Yah. Let's talk about when the abuse - when did the abuse start?

Joe       Okay. I was 11 years old... 11 years old. It was a very confusing part of this episode of my life. I didn't know if it was good thing or a bad thing or... If it was supposed to happen or... It was just a confusing part of my life when it happened.

D.J.      Well that makes sense to me. It would be confusing for an 11-year-old when an adult approaches you for sex.

Joe       Yeah. I guess I also felt like I kind of deserved it or I don't know. It was just confusing. So, it was just the beginning of I guess, the effects will have in [my] life started then.

D.J.      [Agrees] Was this someone close to you?

Joe       Yah. Yes. It was someone very close and which they're still around. I wrote the book not to incriminate anyone. Because they have family and kids and things like that. My heart was with the kids. You know, I didn't want them being tees growing up. Even though I had to release this book to help with my healing, I also wanted to help the abuser or anyone else or any other abuses out there realize what they do or the things they do, how it affects us.

D.J.      so, you wanted to get your story out there without necessarily naming him so he wouldn't have to go through a bunch of consequences which might affect his family.

Joe       Yah! Because also fear was a another big thing and why I never really told anyone. It's been over 24 years. Even though every day I can't live my life in fear anymore, abusers, they may have a retaliation streak. I think about that every day, but like I said, I can't live my life in fear. I didn't write this book to incriminate anyone. I wrote it so that all of us could get help. I hope they take it is that.

D.J.      I'm glad that you wrote it. We need to have more voices talking about our experiences. The book is very impactful. Starting at 11 years old, being sexually abused by, from what I read, what was a friend of the family or someone who is close to the family....

Joe       Yes.

D.J.      As you said earlier, that's very confusing. I'm curious, when did you disclose this abuse to your family?

Joe       Oooh. Well... It kind of never got disclosed! This was like, Still Breathing is like the first time it's ever been exposed.

D.J.      Wow!

Joe       There's a lot [he pauses to laugh] coming out of this book that is shocking a lot of people. It's also been a therapeutic experience for me because I have been holding in for almost 24 years. I feel like it's time to live. I'm not healed from it... by the book... but it's a step in the healing process.

D.J.      Absolutely! You know, healing is a process for sure. Can you give us an idea of the make up your view family? Is your mom and dad still with us? Things like that.

Joe       My mom and dad are still here. They've been separated for since I was like four or five years old. When it comes to that, to the abuse, I felt like my abuser gave me a sense of masculinity that I yearn for from my dad. I kind of fell in love with that part of the abuser. I have a really a difference of a situation where it kind of went on since I was 11 until about two years ago, two or three years ago, the way it went on. I said, I fell in love with the abuser - the masculinity part. It was like, it was like, he was just a weird situation.

D.J.      in your book, you describe him as a father figure.

Joe       Yah.

D.J.      it sounds like maybe he went from father figure to more of a lover?

Joe       Yah! It was like that.

D.J.      How old are you now?

Joe       36. I'll be 37 in May.

D.J.      You said that the sexual relationship between you two didn't end until about two years ago?

Joe       Two or three years ago. Yes.

D.J.      Oh, my God! 

Joe       Yes! It was. [exasperated sound] It's been a tough situation.

D.J.      But I doubt you're the only one who's had that experience.

Joe       Okay.

D.J.      I truly doubt that you're the only one who's had that experience where it started out where you started out being abused by an adult and because you didn't necessarily have the awareness or skills or tools that you needed, the sexual relationship continued.

Joe       Yah. That's kind of what I became... I became like their sexual toy. That's all I was to them.

D.J.      I hate to hear that. 

How has this sexual assault impacted your relationships with friends and family and maybe even other dating partners that you might have had over the years?

Joe       It has affected... It has impacted on many levels. When it comes to friends, I, I hold my friendships with so much loyalty. I have a trust problem as well because of this. If I consider you a friend, I hold you dearly to my heart. I don't know if that comes as a side effect of abuse or sometimes abandonment issues or things like that, but I'm also afraid of that - fear of rejection. I hold my friendships that I have, I hold them dear. When it comes to relationships with lovers? That's always been a hard thing. Even though, when it came to relationships, I didn't feel as though they love me and less there was some type of verbal abuse or physical abuse or mental abuse from them. If I got that from them, then I felt like they loved me. Those are some of the effects, side effects of it.

D.J.      It's like looking for the same thing you always had.

Joe       Exactly! I was always looking for that same feeling. No one could ever give me that same feeling that the abuser gave me so I would look for certain people that would resemble the abuser, that made me feel like they were the abuser. When it came to sexual relations, it always had to feel as though it was like a forced... Like a rape experience going on in order for me to enjoy myself. It affects you in many ways. I didn't realize any of this until a few years ago when I decided to write this book. It was like, "Wow! This really impacted my life." I can't find the right words to say. Yah – It has!

D.J.     I think a lot of our listeners will understand what you're trying to say. It is a very confusing time for you and it didn't just happen once or twice, we're talking 20 years, right? 20+ years! I can definitely see how you would be impacted and influenced in relationships and how you might be seeking out that familiar. I'm curious, who helped you come to realize may be what you were in was not a healthy dynamic.

Joe       I also went to school for massage therapy. I think during massage therapy over the years, what I call a bodywork, well... Doing that over the years, I think has kept me sane because it helped balance all the pain that I was feeling and the negative energy that I was harboring all of these years. The energy help balance back. That help me stay sane.

I have a good client who is a pastor who has the gift of discernment. One thing, he talked to me a lot. He was just going over some things and it was just like he was telling me my life. I was just in shock. What he said to me was," You become the father figure to so many people because you're trying to fill a void. You're so nice to so many people, even though you have so much pain, you're filling the void." He also said, "You don't feel like you're worthy of love. That's why you give it to so many people because you don't feel like you're worthy of it and when something good happens to you, you run away from it. You don't feel like you deserve it.I was [thinking] on it and I was saying that there was someone... Something happened to me."

I was like, "Wow!" During that time, I also fell into my deepest depression. This is like 2014. I fell into my deepest, deepest, darkest depression. I lost everything. I mean, I did want to do anything. I lost my car. I was down to zero. I had gotten on my knees and I said, "Lord! I have to break out of this." I had to come to the realization that what I was going through and why I was feeling this way... And it just clicked. I was like, “Wow!" From being sexually abused as a child and going through it all these years, it has really impacted my life. By him helping me discover this, that's when, "Still Breathing" burst. 
 
D.J.      So this pastor, he saw right through you.

Joe       Yah. It was a strong experience. Very, very weird.

D.J.      So what I'm hearing is empathy and maybe he was able to connect with something that he's had an experience or something he's previously witnessed from someone else and he was able to connect with you which open the door for you, really. 

Joe       Mmm hmm. [Agreement]

D.J.      That sounds like a very moving experience. I hope this person is still in your life.

Joe       Yes, there are. Yes

D.J.      You said that the pastor and said that you give out love to everyone else because you don't think you deserve it. That resonates with me too. There was a point in my life where I just thought, I'm worthless. That doesn't mean that you have to be. Let me build you up. 

In your book you said, "I made myself feel like nothing just to make him feel like everything."

Joe       Yes

D.J.      That makes sense to me because if you are doing that with him, you are probably doing that with other people.

Joe       yes. With everybody. With everyone. No matter what was said about me, no matter what was done to me, I still had a smile on my face. They were treated with kindness and that was all that mattered to me. I had to realize even though I still feel that way... I had to start saying to myself every day, "I am worthy of love. I am worthy of kindness. I am worthy of good things. I'm worthy of God's unconditional love. I'm worthy." I have to enforce that into myself every day.

D.J.      Every single day. Yes! Absolutely! That is self-care at its finest. I am a therapist. I work with clients who have been sexually abused or assaulted. One of the hardest things is for them to accept that they are worthy after having had an experience of assault or abuse. It takes time. It takes patience and kindness and compassion for ourselves to build ourselves back up. Once we are, once we love ourselves, no one can take that away from us.

Joe       Yes. 

D.J.      I think some of us miss that experience growing up. We don't get what we need. I often say to people, look. Your parents probably did the best that they could but that doesn't mean that they had all of the things you needed.
I'm curious, did something like that happened for you or was is something missing?

Joe       Well yeah. It's kind of like I'm playing catch-up now. I always bring this up. When it comes to... People always used to joke on Michael Jackson when it comes to his eccentricity in reference to children in his childhood. I've always felt like I related to him in some kind of way because I lost out on my childhood. I lost out on my innocence. I lost out on my choices. I didn't have the chance to make my own choices and what I wanted to do sexually, you know? Different things like that. I felt like I... Even as a grown man... I know a grown man. I have responsibilities. But I still feel like that child, that child that just wants to live and have fun and play. I still feel like that. Sometimes.

Sometimes, some people may misunderstand me because they never knew what I had gone through. Now that this book... "I'm Still Breathing" is out, maybe they can get a better understanding of why I may feel this way or act this way or sometimes I may seem to do immature things. It's all in reference to that. I just want to go back to 11 years old, 10 years old and get that happiness back.

D.J.      Right. When trauma happens, our emotions become stunted. Just over the last few years, you're starting to come into your own and probably experience all of the emotions that you did not when the abuse was going on. So, that makes sense to me that you're still having these experiences of immaturity. You are growing up. You're becoming a young man emotionally. I can tell you as someone who has been through this that you'll become the right age emotionally. It does happen eventually. It just takes time.

I'm curious what have been some of the consequences of some of this heinous act in your life? Have drugs, alcohol been a part of your life?

Joe       Well, yes! Oooh. I... Alcohol. Alcohol... [Nervous, reminiscent laughing] Alcohol has been that go to pain reliever over so many years. I recently just cut back on drinking so much. That was my pain reliever for so many years. Music has been my pain reliever. But the effects of it in my life - I was running away from it for so many years, following wrong crowds, looking for love in so many wrong places... Trying to do things just to forget the abuser, to get away from the abuser. There's, I feel like I could be so much further in life if I did not feel unworthy so much. Because of this, I have to, it's like I'm almost rebuilding at 36 years old, where I should have been a few years ago. Now I'm playing catch-up. I know things happen for a reason. I'm also thankful that I'm still here, I'm surviving and I'm able to share my stories to help others get through their situations. They can get to them as well.

It's still tough. I'm not to say it's not tough. It's been tough!

D.J.      one of those things in your life that are helping you get through, now? I heard music and music can be a lifesaver for sure. Are there other positive things that you're doing now?

Joe       I'm trying to build a strong relationship with my mom. Because of this, because what happened to me, I was always embarrassed by it. I always stayed to myself no matter who it was. I built up this huge wall. I'm trying to be a more outgoing, open person. I'm starting to talk more now. I have to get my vocabulary back up because I've always been a mu for so many years so it's like I have to get back and talk again.

I get support from my mom. I get support from so many people now. It's like, I try to look for the good in days now, instead of always dwelling on the past, or the negative things. If a negative thought or depression starts coming to me, I hurry up and jump up and try to better my spirits. I know that I have to keep fighting.

Like I said, I have good support now. Also, therapy! Therapy helps. Therapy, good support, believing in yourself, loving yourself, loving myself, believing that God loves me unconditionally no matter what I've gone through matter what I've done. He loves me unconditionally.

D.J.      I really could hear that in your book. You talk a lot about your relationship with God. Was that something that, were you exposed to religion or spirituality and God in your family of origin? Or is this something that you've discovered since the abuse?

Joe       well, no. I've always been, even since I was little I would go to Sunday school and Bible study and things like that. I am not a heavily religious person. I believe in the most high, I believe in the high spirit. I believe there's a God. But I'm not a heavily religious person. I believe that there's a God. Without God, I don't know how I could survive. I thank God for everything he's done.

D.J.      Amazing!

Your book came out recently, a couple of months ago?

Joe       Yes, February.

D.J.      Okay - in February. I've seen in social media the you been doing interviews, talks with other folks, and I'm wondering what has that experience been like while you're in it?

Joe       well, it's been, it's been therapeutic. It's also give me, each time it's give me a platform to tell my story, to get across to so many people, males, females who have may be gone through something like this. Whether it's sexual abuse or anything that's [keeping them from] joy, to know that they can get through it. They have to want to get through it, they have to keep fighting for it.

To do these interviews now, I don't know if it was the shyness or the feeling unworthy, now that I'm speaking more about it, I'm feeling more comfortable releasing my story. It's still fresh. Is still brand-new. I've never told anyone. The more and more that I talk about it, it seems like it's erasing any fear that I had.

You have to remember, fear was always the number one point in not telling anyone because I was told that if I ever told anyone, they would find me on the side of the milk carton box. I kinda believe that. I still live to this day because the abuser is kind of crazy. But like I said, I can't live my life in fear. As long as him helping other people, that's what I care about now.

D.J.      I'm definitely hearing that you don't want to live in fear but I'm curious if you ever considered any legal avenues to protect yourself.

Joe       I think about that all the time. I think about that all the time. I'm just not sure how that would work out. By being so long, the limits, [statue of limits] I'm not sure how that would work out. It's been over 24 years.

I don't know. It's a weird situation. A lot of people say, Joe, well... Why are you protecting them? I say, well I'm not protecting them, I'm protecting their kids. That's the confusing part to me. Like I said, right or wrong, I know that they've made my life a living hell, you know for a lot of years. Why should I protect them? Did he care about mine? But it's like, as a child, and I know how today's society is... I know I was a child wants. I know how cruel growing up in bullying can be. I don't want them to go through that. So that's what I think about all the time. Even though that crosses my mind, I'm just confused about that part.

D.J.      you know, when I came to realize that I was abused, I had the same mindset, that I needed to protect the family. I did protect my family. I stayed quiet for like 17 years. Then I started talking about it. And I started telling my family about it. I started talking to my therapist about it. I remember him saying that my obligation was not to protect other people is to protect me. For me, that means revealing my truth. That's what got me on the path to speaking about my abuse because the more I kept it in, the more I was hurting myself. 

I'm not sure if you knew this about me, but in October, I reported my abuser. Yeah, the statute of limitations, that's a thing. It exists. It's different in every state. But you know they straight up told me that there's nothing they could do. But for me what was important was that his name was in their system in case another child ever had the experience that I had.

That was so important to me. I truly believe that I sleep better at night now.

Joe       Also, with that story, someone called me and said, you know Joe? What you call report, or do something? Because, you don't know how many others are out there, how many others he's done this to. They were like, Joe, F that man because he didn't give a S about you. So, why do you care about them?

You know, after so many years, just like I said, I was literally in love, this is the love of my life. You know what I mean? I mean after 24 years, now, I'm finally breaking away from it, from this long-term abusive relationship. It's kind of hard because it plays wit... There are so many levels of emotions here. It's kind of hard. You know, I almost want him to be punished, but I also want them to get help, to understand why they did this.

D.J.      [Interjecting] Maybe he will. Maybe other people will come forward and you'll hear about that the news or something.

Then you can add another voice or something. But you have to decide today.

Joe       Mmmhmm. [Acknowledging]

Also, before the book came out, they caught me out the blue. This is the time when I was so stressed. Like, “Wow... They get to see this book and know it's about them." I was so afraid and stressed out, like what am I gonna say? You say this to them. They called out the blue, and was asking, "is there anything in this book I need to know about?" He caught me off guard. I was shocked. I did know to say. So, I just played it. I was like," what you mean? Why are you asking?" Then he said again, "is there anything in this book that I need to know about?" I said, "Well, I'm not sure." I wanted to stop playing with this. I said," well, yes. It's my story. It's what you did to me." They were acting shocked, like in denial. I was going to something religious. I was having a religious experience. I never stopped them.

So, it was like, "Wow! Yes... This is the reason why I tell my story because they don't see nothing wrong with what they've done.

There was a relief of them knowing that the stories coming out. Also let them know that is not going to incriminate because of their kids. I want to protect the kids. That was the main reason - their kids. It still bothers me every day. I think about it every day.

D.J.      have you forgiven him Joe?

Joe       [Clears throat.] No. I haven't.

D.J.      That's all right, too. 

Joe       I haven't. I mean, it's hard because if you read the book, there's so many levels, so many things that have gone through in life because of this. Sometimes, I feel as though he really ruined my life in kind of a way.

They might not ever understand this, but they've ruined my life. I feel like now it's like I'm playing catch-up. Try to make things right. I'm trying to better myself. I'm trying to... I'm my own publicist now. 

That's the part I can't forgive, like, he ruined my life. If, if, if I didn't have certain support, if I didn't have strong-willed determination to keep going, I would've been dead by now. So, I don't know how I could ever forgive them.

D.J.      But you know what, the important thing to remember and hold true to yourself is that you are strong, you are a survivor. It doesn't matter that you haven't reported him or revealed his name, because you're the survivor. What happened to you should never have happened. Because it happened, you now are given a voice to a problem that exists in our culture and throughout the country, throughout the world where people, men and women, believe that they have the right to abuse a child. They don't. Because of your voice, because of my voice and everyone else who steps forward and speaks about their experience, we are letting other survivors know that they are not alone.

Joe       [agrees]

D.J.      I can tell you, my first-hand experiences that, that is healing. I've healed so much just by doing this podcast and I've only been doing it for a few months. I healed when I published my book, “I Just Wanted Love." I heal every day that I get to show up at my office and witness other people coming to terms with their abuse and making a decision to change their lives and not to allow the abuse to stop them from living. Joe's book go get Joe's book

Joe       Wow. What you just said, just like really touched me. It brought tears. “I Just Wanted Love." 

D.J.      [agrees]

Joe       [continues...] That's, Wow! That's deep. I can relate to that.

D.J.      that's what I'm hearing from you. You are working on loving yourself, every single day. And that's what you need. Surrounding yourself with people who are going to love you, who are you gonna treat you kind[ly], are going to be compassionate with you. You deserve better just like the rest of us. My hope is that you find that. My hope is that as you continue to grow and become aware of your emotions and what your needs and what your wants are, you can open up yourself and your heart again to another person who won't be your abuser, who won't need to harm you for you to feel a connection from them. I think if you continue to tell your story, all of those things can happen for you.
I truly believe that. I really want to thank you for giving us the opportunity to get to know you.

Joe       thank you for all that you do for all the survivors and yourself. Thanks for being strong for so many. 

D.J.      it's my pleasure. It really is.

I wanted to end with something I read in your book that was really just uplifting.

You said," I love myself in spite of who people think I am. I need to love myself in spite of who people think I am. I have learned that it doesn't matter who shows up in your life, you must find the strength to always be there for yourself. As long as God wakes me up every day, I am accounted for, I am living for myself."

That is a message to live with, every single day.

Joe, thank you for taking the time to share your story with us. I want our audience to be able to read about you, to follow you on social media and such. Can you give us a rundown on how we might find you?
 
Joe       on Instagram for "Still Breathing", it's @stillbreathingbook. On Twitter, it's @SBbookjbraxton. Lapels for a Cause, you can go on Instagram - it's lapels4acause and on Twitter is the same thing, @lapels4acause. You can go to www.lapels4acause.com or if you want to order the book, "Still Breathing," you can search on Amazon. It's on paperback and Kindle. You can search, "Still Breathing." You can search, "Joe Braxton." You can order, if you want a signed copy, you can order on my website at www.theJoebraxton.com. 

D.J.      Awesome, Joe. Thank you! Thank you so much.

And, listeners, go get Joe's book. It's a great book. I can't put it down. I think I read in a day. It's really amazing. I think you'll get a lot from it. 

Joe - thank you for being willing to tell your story and to keep loving yourself, and spite of all the things that have happened.

Joe       Thank you! I appreciate you having me on your podcast. Thank you.

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Journey On is looking to hear from you. If you're interested in sharing your experience, strength and hope, email us at journeyonpodcast@Gmail.com for details.

Journey On's production is currently funded in whole by me as part of my desire to provide support for those who are still suffering. Production costs fluctuate and can be prohibitive in terms of what I can offer our audience. You can help support Journey On's mission by supporting the production. There are two options. You can donate the amount of your choice directly from your cell phone by texting the word journey to 855-735-2437, that's Journey to 855-735-2437 or you can become a patron of the show by setting up a monthly contribution by going to patreon.com/journeyon - that's patreon.com/journeyon. Once there, you can select a contribution level of your choice. Thank you for considering.

Don't forget to visit journeyonpod.com and sign up for my recovery journey newsletter. Once you have subscribed, you will get more information about my weekend mail survivor retreats and my online coaching services for male survivors.

Journey On is produced by D.J. Burr and Recovery Legacy Network, bringing you recovery on all fronts. Learn more at www.recoveryLegacynetwork.com.
 
Today's music features tracks by CDK and Airtone. You can learn more about the tracks from our website at journeyonpod.com. 
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Until next time, breath deep [inhales] [exhales] and Journey On.

Welcome to journey on. I’m D.J. Burr, the host and executive producer. I'm a licensed psychotherapist, behavioral addictions specialist, and best-selling author of, "I Just Wanted Love, Recovery of a Codependent Sex and Love addict," available on Amazon, audible, and iTunes. This podcast is for male survivors of sexual abuse and assault who want to experience a life worth living beyond a tragic past. I'm a survivor just like you and I know the complexity of healing from trauma and I also know the joy that comes from the healing process. Here are our stories and share your own. You are not alone! You two can breathe deep and journey on.

I encourage you to visit the journey on website at www.journeyonpod.com. There you will find a link to sign up for my recovery journey newsletter, learn about my day weekend recovery events for male survivors and my online recovery coaching services for male survivors.

If you have questions, concerns or comments or would like to be on the show, email me at journeyonpodccast@Gmail.com. Journey on his own social media. Tweet us @journeyonpod. Find us on Instagram and Facebook at journeyonpodcast.

The month of April is national sexual assault awareness month, sponsored by the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. This year, the SAAM Campaign is engaging voices. The focus will be on involving coaches, faith leaders and bystanders by preventing sexual assault. Many groups such as salt and he is same problem with them. With this year’s post cards, the NSVRC hope to help these voices talk about preventing sexual assault. You can download the toolkits and postcards as well as other support tools at www.nsvrc.org/saam/getinvolved. 

Look out for our social media post this month using the hashtag #SAAM and the hashtag #journeyon as we celebrate national sexual assault awareness month. I'll be looking for your posts with the same hashtags as well. You never know I might reach out to you as well and want to hear your story.

On this week's episode, I'm talking with Patrick Dati. Patrick is a national speaker on the topics of child abuse and assault, bullying and LGBTQI rights. Patrick is the author of, "I AM ME, Survivor of Child Abuse and Bullying Speaks Out," which is now available on Amazon as a paperback and Kindle download. I have this book and it is a page turner! Please pick up this book and read Patrick story.

Patrick Dati is also known as also known as the first survivor of the prolific serial killer John Wayne Gacy. Patrick wills share his survivor's story with us today and tell us how he managed to put his life back together after such a heinous assault which shattered his childhood innocence and plunged him into the depths of dysfunction. Patrick Dati is truly a survivor and I'm grateful he reached out to me. Take a listen.

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D.J.                  Welcome to the show.
​
Patrick, can you tell our audience who you are?
 
Patrick             My name is Patrick Dati and I'm an author, advocate, and I speak out to help victims nationally who have been abused, bullied and have nowhere else to turn.

D.J.                  I imagine that that's a challenging position to be in as an advocate of people who have been abused. Can you tell our audience kind of how you got started? 

Patrick             Sure. You know what's interesting? I grew up in an Italian, Catholic family on the northwest side of Chicago. My father was an Italian immigrant and we were the family. There were five of us. I was the youngest of five. We were this picture-perfect family. Everything was supposed to be perfect. My parents were wonderful people but they knew a lot of what was going on in the household and out of reasons of not wanting to expose the family so our relatives wouldn't realize was going on. It was kind of like this secret and there's so much we can talk about and we will but that's kind of the beginning of it all.

D.J.                  So would you say part of your work is to make sure that the secrets are exposed?

Patrick             Really, right now I'm working on and it's a major project is coming up with curriculum, education curriculum is based on abuse and the signs that parents should know. I want to push that curriculum out to the teachers, school superintendents, parents. It's so important. It's still untouched.

D.J.                  It sounds really important

Patrick             One of my best friends, she is a professor at the University of Florida. Her major goal is - her name is Dorothy Espelage. Dorothy's major goal is to get grants and once she gets her grants, she goes and speaks to places who will let her speak about anti-bullying. It's amazing because a lot of schools and don't want her because when she goes into these wealthy communities like [Named Community] in major cities, they feel like "My kids are bullies... I don't want them to be labeled as bullies!" You know what I mean?
 
D.J.                  I totally understand that. I was bullied as a kid, too. I know you speak a lot about bullying because it happened in your family of origin. I've been reading your book. Can you tell us the name of your book and where we could find a copy of your book? Then we'll just dive into the story that probably inspired it.
 
Patrick             My book is called, "I Am Me, Surviovor of Bullying and Child Aubse Speaks Out." My book can be found on my website which is www.Patrickdati.com. It's also available on Amazon. That's a great start.
2017 is going to be an amazing year for me. I'm doing some wonderful stuff. I have some great speaking engagements that I'm doing. I'm a little bit different than most speakers. I have a couple of different platforms. My platforms are related to anti-bullying, child abuse prevention and domestic violence and LGBT issues. I know that some of broad, but the reason I do that is because those are things that are important to my life.

D.J.                  And those are the things that you've been impacted by.
Well here on journey on, we're talking to people who have survived childhood sexual abuse. I started this podcast because I am a survivor as well. I wanted to bring on survivors of childhood sexual abuse or sexual assault, even as an adult. For people to hear our stories and to share their own because sometimes we feel like were in isolation. I know the year's story starts at a very young age. How old were you when you were assaulted?

Patrick             9 years old. What my story impacted, not just nationally - internationally... Is that I'm the first victim that got away from the serial killer John Wayne Gacy. If a lot of people don't know who he is, he's a monster. He killed and buried 33 boys under his home.
What was interesting for me after I learned and became an adult, I was the first victim they got away from him. He tried to abduct me from a department store here in Chicago called [Name of Department Store]. Had he succeeded, I would be dead right now. I would have been the first one. It was 1973 and before, before he started his rampage of killing, he had been, I believe in Iowa. He was working some odd jobs. He was molesting boys but he wasn't killing them. He came back to Chicago and he started a construction company and that's where it all began.
D.J., the weirdest thing about it all, my best friend that I grew up with who we've been best friends since kindergarten, I did notice at the time and neither did he, Gacy lived on the next block. My best friend's father was a Chicago police officer at the time.
 
D.J.                  Wow! So, this man was in the neighborhood where you probably frequented.
 
Patrick             Dressed up as a clown. He would do neighborhood things. He, he was known to be... Roslyn Carter had a picture with him. Mayor Daley, our Mayor here in Chicago who is deceased, was connected with him. This story does not go away. They believe that he is connected with the Chicago Mafia, or was. So, it's interesting because I get contacted by people all the time here in Chicago. As you see from my website, all of Chicago media, including WGN, ABC NEWS, NBC NEWS, FOX - because this story won't go away.

D.J.                  Yah! How could it? I mean this man... I imagine is well known throughout the world as being one of the most prolific serial killers... And you are a victim who survived.
So, you're nine years old and based on what I know from your book, you, your brother, and I believe one other person went to the department store? Can you say what happened? How did you come into contact with Gacy?

Patrick             Sure. It was a January, winter day. We went to my cousin's house to just hang out. We were nine-year-old kids. We were going to have a snowball fight and just do what typical kids do. After about a half an hour we got cold and my cousin lives literally at half a block from [the department store] which is similar to a Zayers if your audience is not familiar. They had a candy store area and we all pull together our change and bought some candy. We sat in the hallway of the stairwell of the department store. You know, as kids, we were all joking around and we decided to play hide and go seek.

In Chicago, you have to be creative when you live in the city - you have to have fun your own ways. Anyway, I was the seeker. They all went out and hid. After starting to look for them, I needed to use the restroom. When I went up to the restroom and went into the stall, took my jacket off... I heard this person next to me, in the stall next to me. He got up. I heard a lock.

I'll tell you right now, that lock of that door never, ever exits my mind. I hear it every day.
I got up, put my jacket on, washed my hands and as I started to exit the bathroom, he was standing there, in front of the door. No one else was in there. He took out a knife, he held it next to my neck. He said, “You’re gonna follow me to my car and you're going to do exactly what I say." At that point, you know, my parents had told me about stranger danger or whatever. At that point, I felt like he was gonna kill me. I don't care. I'm not going to leave with them because if I leave with them he is going to kill me.

At that point, I screamed and I started to have a set.

He locked the bathroom door. Ripped my clothes off and proceeded to rape me.

D.J.                  I just can't imagine how terrified you must have been.

Patrick             Well... I was nine years old. When he was finished, I had totally forgot that my brother and my cousins were there. I mean, that was the last thing in my mind. My immediate thought at that point was putting on my clothes and running home. Which I did.

It was a Saturday or Sunday I don't remember. It was a weekend. My parents were out shopping. I ran up to my bedroom and I got into my closet and I cried. I was, at that point, my life as a child, he stole everything for me.

D.J.                  When you say that he stole everything from you, your childhood, can you say what that really means for you?

Patrick             Yeah, my life changed. I was a straight a student. I flunked the third grade after that. I isolated myself from my friends and my family. 

I don't know if you're aware of this from traumatic issues like this, I had a condition which was obsessive-compulsive disorder. I would pray several times a day. My life changed. I was not... I tell people now and I said in my book, I lost my childhood. I lost who I was. It's sad because I have amazing 20-year-old daughter who is love of my life. I provided her with everything in this sense of not just financial things, but love and care. Because of my book and because of my publicity, she obviously knows everything about me. It's not been easy for her.

D.J.                  I imagine it's probably been quite odd seeing your dad on the news talking about something that happened to him when he was nine years old. Maybe knowing that her peers are seeing those news interviews and you going on book tours and things like that. Yeah. Her childhood has been impacted too.

Patrick             When the book 1st came out and I was doing all of my interviews both internationally and nationally, she was still in high school the time. Obviously, she has my last name and kids would ask. "I saw this man on the news last night and his name is Patrick Dati, do you know him?" She would say, "That's my father."

They were like, "Oh my God! His story is amazing!"

To her credit, when they asked about me, she said my father does amazing work and he is a website and if you want to know anything about it you can go there and research it, but it's not for me to tell.

D.J.                  Was that something you had encouraged her to say or she just came up with that on her own?

Patrick             Not at all. She did on her own.

D.J.                  Sounds very mature.

Patrick             Very much so. 

D.J.                  When did you know? When did you come to realize that the man that raped you in that stall at that department store was John Wayne Gacy?

Patrick             As a may have indicated earlier, my best friend since we were five years old and we're still best friends, his father was a Chicago police officer in the 16th district in Chicago. We had no idea, myself or my friend or his family. Gacy lived on the next block from where they lived. That day, he was arrested which was in December. It was a Thursday and we had gotten out of school, my friend had invited me to his house to play pool in his basement. We were hanging out.

Within about a half an hour, we started hearing all of these sirens and commotion. And then, when we went upstairs to his main floor of his house, we looked out and the police were surrounding the whole neighborhood. The media, the news who are out there. At this point we still didn't know what was going on. We wanted to find out. My best friend's father called his mom at the house and said don't let the kids out, there's something going out and I'll tell you about it later. 

We did go outside. His mom turn on the news and we were watching what was going on.

As soon as Gacy's mug shot came on the screen, I knew that was him. I ran to their bathroom. I began to throw up. I was crying.

When I came out I begged my friend’s mom to take me home. She was like, "Patrick, I can't! The media has blocked the driveway." That was my first thought of attempting suicide.

D.J.                  You said it was your first thought of attempting suicide?

Patrick             Mmm hmm. [Agreeing]

Which I did about a week later. The thought of, at that point, 33 young men were killed and buried under a house after he was arrested came forward and for me knowing that I was the first victim they got away. Had I come forward, maybe they wouldn't have died.

D.J.                  So you felt guilty?

Patrick             Mmm hmm. [Agreeing] yes.

D.J.                  What other feelings did you have?

Patrick             At that time? You know, as a teenager, I had felt that I was gay and thought I was although I didn't know what it was. Once I felt those feelings, I pushed them aside because growing up in the household I did, it was acceptable. So, I hid.

I hid deeply.

Married to women. As I mentioned, I have a 20-year-old daughter who's the love of my life. I did what my family expected me to do.

D.J.                  So I take it that, when you saw that Gacy was a man who molested you and you became sick and want to go home, you did not tell your family what it happened.

Patrick             No. Statistics show that 80 to 85% of men and boys never come forward about their abuse out of shame. I was one of those statistics.

D.J.                  I'm familiar. So, you held on, you held onto that secret. And for most people who hold onto that secret, they experience a lot of pain, sometimes depression, anxiety and I heard you mentioned that you mentioned OCD, obsessive-compulsive disorder, which is an anxiety disorder. And some people turn to drugs and alcohol. Is that a part of your story too?

Patrick             it was. It was. But, to be successful with my advocacy work, I needed to control all of that.

D.J.                  At some point you came forward and told you truth. When did you decide? How did you decide?

Patrick             It was 2011. Before I came forward. My psychiatrist had recommended that I write a diary to therapeutically release what I'd gone through. So, I done that already. My father died in 2010. Around February 2011, my mother had my brothers and sisters over to the house to talk about my father's will. My brother who bullied and abused me most of my life was there. He's an alcoholic. He's a cocaine addict.

I was supposed to bring some wine for dinner. When I walked in, I had forgotten it. He asked where it was. I explained that I was running late and he... imagine my mother's kitchen, my family sitting at the table and he called me an 'F-ing Faggot... And that he hated me my entire life... Something that he'd said before but never in front of my family and I looked at them and they all kind of put their head down, not literally, but, but turned their head around.

Again, it was their way of not exposing an issue that was very important because they didn't want to admit that it was going on in our household.

At that point, he said he was going to kill me. He picked up a knife and he chased me out of my mother's house for a block.

I got away.

The call my best friend. My best friend picked me up. I went to the police department, filed a restraining order. That's what changed my life. I actually wrote my brother a letter and thanked him.

Had he not done that, I would not be here in the sense of telling the story to you or to the public.

D.J.                  So filing a restraining order against your brother change your life?

Patrick             No. My brother threatening to kill me change my life.

D.J.                  So his threat to kill you change your life and what happened next? What you mean by that? A change in life...

Patrick             I started my advocacy work. Social media became a huge part of my life, telling my story, reaching out to people that would allow me to tell my story but on a very big basis.

In 2011, the US Department of Health and human services was selecting their six trauma victims and survivors for 2012. I wrote a letter to them, and I was selected.

They flew me to D.C. they interviewed me for about an hour and a half and with my agreement, they took that video footage and used it in 2012 as education based material to children and their parents about abuse and the signs that they should recognize.

So that was the beginning.

D.J.                  At that point, your story is inspiring others or at least educating others.

Patrick             Yah. I mean, when I returned from D.C., every Chicago television station picked me up. I was on ABC news, NBC news, Fox, WGN and it just elevated me. I had no PR firm, nothing at that point. My book wasn't even out. But people wanted to know my story.

D.J.                  You told everything?

Patrick                         Mmm hmm. [Affirming]

Like I am with you now.

D.J.                  That must've been freeing for you.

Patrick             Of course. You know, the biggest thing for me that come out of doing all of this and his wife doing what I'm doing, early on in my advocacy work, probably, right after I did my work with the US Department of Health and Human Services, there was a mother, her name is Dawn. She lives in upstate New York. Where very good friends now. She didn't even know about me at this point. She started to research her son, Hunter, was becoming isolated, grades were similar to mine, you know dropping. Not communicating. He was 11 at the time.

Don did some research on the Internet and came along my website. She read what I had written on the website. Immediately, like the next day she researched a psychiatrist and found one and sent Hunter to a psychiatrist.

After about like three sessions, Hunter had disclosed that he was being molested by his father on his visits. That was so incredible for Dawn and Hunter to get him help although about two weeks later, I don't know if you're familiar with Denise Brown, Nicole Brown Simpson's sister. She's a domestic violence advocate. I was a guest on her radio show in New York. I had posted on social media that I was going to be on her show. Don knew it. During the show, telling my story like I am now, Denise had mentioned that we're gonna take some calls from callers that want to ask you questions. I said that's awesome! Don was the first caller.

She said, "Patrick it's me. You do is you call." She put Hunter on the phone and he said, "Mr. Dati, you save my life." I said, "How's that." He said, "if my mother didn't get me the help that I needed, I was going to commit suicide the next week. That changed my life forever."

D.J.                  That's why I think it's important for us to share stories.

Patrick             Correct.

D.J.                  if someone out there would be able to relate, even if it's just one person, we could help that person get the help they need.

What kind of advice could you offer to our listeners who have struggled with their own truth? Maybe they were molested as a child or assaulted as an adult? What advice can you offer?

Patrick             Well, where I'm heading right now, it's all about education. We lack it. We lack it in our school systems. We lack it in the home. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's because parents don't want to admit that their child could possibly be molested. Bullying, I mean, I never talk politics, never, never, never, never.

With this new administration coming up, it's going to be a huge issue. With regards to bullying. With regards to aggressive abuse. Now is the time to support those issues and to make a difference.

So, the advice I'd give people would be, more education. Parents need to be researching on the Internet that has so much information.

You know talking to the children, I have a 20-year-old daughter. Because of my experience, I've had many conversations with her in regard to, this is not okay, this is okay. Unfortunately, for me, we have a high crime rate here in Chicago and nationally, but you don't have as many stories of these crazy serial killers back in the day. At least we know of. It changed my life. I will never be the same person. I'm not dwelling the aspect of the anger and the hurt that it caused me. Right now, what I'm focused on is how can I help another child. How can I help a parent understand and those are my goals? 

I also, and I've talked about this, I'm developing educational curriculum, to help enhance school systems, school superintendents, school principals, teachers, parents on this stuff. But it's so obvious, but they take for granted.

D.J.                  It's wonderful that you're able to provide that education and you are a resource. You are a resource to people who need it. You're a voice to a lot of people who are unable to speak about their abuse and we need more people like you. I'm inspired by folks like you who can tell their stories. It's help me tell my story. There've been people who I've interacted with who've inspired me to tell my story, and that's why we have this podcast today. So, if we can all get together and tell her stories, who knows we can do.

Patrick             Right!

D.J.                  Before we close, I wonder if you have any words that you could impart to our listeners.

Patrick             Definitely! You know I'm not pitching myself but I think a lot of people would learn a lot about me and my experience from my website which is www.Patrickdati.com. My book is on Amazon. Definitely a must read. Especially for victims and or family members who have been in situations like you and I. I'm always a resource. I'm not clinically able to give people advice, although, I'm an ear for them to listen.

D.J.                  that's what we need. We need more people to listen. So, thank you for offering that. You are a listener. Yes, like you said, you're not clinically trained, but you're a survivor. I have been reading your book and I am deeply entrenched in your book and it's just very moving. You just capture the essence of the era of you grown-up and in dealing with, you really capture that.

Patrick             D.J. , it's like my publishers told me. You know what, there's too much here. You should focus on one aspect. At that point, they wanted me to focus on John Wayne Gacy. And I was like no. No! That's not my story. That's a part of my story but that's not my story. If people want to learn about what I've gone through, then they need to know everything.

D.J.                  That's true! That's true! I recommend to our listeners to pick up Patrick's book, it's on Amazon and you will be engrossed in a book. I tell you, it's a page turner. Definitely pick it up! Check out Patrick's website.

Patrick, I want to thank you for being on the show. You're an inspiration and I'm so grateful that you and I have been able to connect and hopefully we can do some more work together. Anything that I could do to help support you, just let me know. I just want to thank you again for really being vulnerable and authentic today because I know will help others.

Patrick             I agree. Thank you so much! I appreciate the work you're doing. Thanks.

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