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Welcome to Journey On. I am D.J. Burr, the host and executive producer. I am a licensed behavioral addictions specialist and bestselling author of "I Just Wanted love - Recovery of a Co-Dependent, Sex and Love Addict," available on Amazon, Audible and iTunes.
This podcast is for male survivors of sexual abuse and assault who want to experience a life worth living beyond a tragic past. I'm a survivor, just like you and I know the complexity of healing from trauma. I also know the joy that comes from the healing process. Hear our stories and share your own. You are not alone. You too can breathe deep and Journey On! I encourage you to visit the Journey On website www.journeyonpod.com. There you will find a link to sign up for my recovery journey newsletter, learn about my weekend recovery events for male survivors and my online recovery coaching services for male survivors. If you have questions, concerns or comments or would like to be on the show, email me at journeyonpodcast@gmail.com. Journey is on social media. Tweet us at JorneyonPod. Find us on Instagram and Facebook at Journey On Podcast. Thank you for joining me for this very first episode of Journey On (Listen Here). Journey On is inspired by my own experience with sexual abuse and assault. Each week, I'm going to bring to you stories of hope and recovery. This week in our very first episode, you will hear my own story. The material you hear today may be hard to listen to. I advise discretion and the use of self-care tools as needed. Take what you like and leave the rest. […. Narration] I grew up in Marietta, Georgia. I lived in a home with my mother, her husband at the time (my stepfather), my younger sister, and my younger brother. I was oldest, and I was responsible for taking care of what seemed like everyone in the house. I used to get my sister and brother ready for school, I would take care of them when they got home from school. I would cook dinner, I would do homework. My mom wasn't home very often, because she was often out doing work. She had a full-time job, she had a part time job. And she was the primary breadwinner in our family. My step dad who is an alcoholic, he in my opinion didn't do much to take care of the family. He wasn't really a parent. The only time that he tried to discipline us kids was when, you know, we were interfering with something that he wanted to be doing. It wasn't because we had done something bad, or said something bad. Or because we brought home bad grades. It was just because maybe we were in the way. We are interfering with his drinking and hanging out on the front porch with this friends. And I fought a lot. He would often scream and yell at me, and I would scream and yell at him. It was just not a healthy dynamic. I didn't respect him as a person or as a parent. And that caused a rift between my mother and I. She and I fought too. You know, she didn't like the fact that my stepfather and I fought, and I didn't like the fact that they fought. They fought like cats and dogs, and I would interject. When they were fighting, you know, part of me believes that was because I thought it was my responsibility to take care of her and my siblings. Whenever I would interject, it seemed like my mom would get mad at me because I was interjecting into adult problems, and so she and I would have conflict. And so, it didn't feel safe in my house, I didn't feel safe. I didn't feel loved in my house. You know, I felt the door. I felt ashamed, I felt guilt, felt fear. It was challenging. You know, I would go off to school and come home with good grades and accolades from my teachers. And whenever I would share that with my mom, it was almost like it was expected of me, so there really wasn't any additional, like praise or support. It was somewhat like an okay, good, move on. It was shitty. You know, I grew up in this neighborhood where there were a lot of low income families. I would say all of them were low income. But for some reason, it seemed like we were on the top of the food chain because my mom had a good job. She made good money, but we just didn't make enough. And as a kid, not really understanding how you don't make enough. But you’re perceived to make more than anyone else, it didn't make a lot of sense to me. But you know, looking back I can see that, you know, just because my mom had a couple extra hundred bucks a month doesn't mean that we were living in a life of luxury. You know we did suffer, we did struggle to put food on our table at times. We did struggle with paying rent. We were on food stamps, we got other government assistance. There were occasions when on Christmas we would get donations from churches, and other organizations to help give us kids something to look forward to on Christmas Day. And I think my mom did the best that she could. You know, she had an alcoholic husband, they fought. So, there was a lot of domestic violence. And I don't think that she recognized at the time how damaging that environment was to us kids, and particularly to me as the oldest. He wasn't my father, he didn't act like a father. I think he was supposed to be a stepfather, but that didn't really work out well for us. I hated him. And there were times when I would admit that I hated my mom. And those were times when she and I would fight, probably the worse. I don't think that was easy for her to hear, and it wasn't very easy for me to say. I grew up expecting to be hurt and not protected. And I think that's what left me vulnerable. It left me vulnerable, and left me at the mercy of abusers. You know, I grew up in a household with an abuser (my stepfather), and at times my mother was abusive. And so, I didn't respect adults. I didn't trust adults, not even with some of the most important information in my life. You know, I knew I was gay as a young kid, and I didn't have anyone I could tell that to without fear of judgment or harm coming to me.
As a gay black male growing up in the south, it’s not safe to talk about that. It's not safe to disclose who you are. I didn't think it was safe to disclose who I was, and so I kept my secrets as best I could. There were times when my mom found out information, and I was confronted about that information of me being sexual with my peers in my neighborhood. But when I came out, it was discussed one afternoon and it was swept under the rug. And it wasn't discussed again until I was sixteen years old and living with my grandmother. And I told my mom that I was gay, and she probed to ask me, you know, did someone hurt me. And I said No! No one had hurt me. How did I know? And I just told her, well I know. Not really disclosing that I had already had sex. I mean, I don't remember when I had sex for the first time, because kids having sex in the projects was the norm. So, I really knew how much to tell her other than the fact that I was gay. And unfortunately, I was you know ready to be outed because of some Internet porn I had been searching for on my grandfather's computer.
Now as a fifteen-year old, going on sixteen year old when that happened, I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I didn't know I was leaving myself vulnerable to predators. But you know, even if they were, if there were predators on the Internet, they were kind of at a distance. There was no one at that time who was threatening me in person. There was no one other than my own family, right? I didn't trust my family, I didn't feel safe with my family, can’t trust that they would take care of me. And when I was Kind of forced out of that closet, because of my internet usage and I told my mom I was gay. I was living with my grandmother and she had always taken care of me since I was a young kid. You know, and she asked me to leave her home. She asked me to leave. And at the time, I had just finished up my sophomore year of high school and I was working at Target at the time. And no! I had got a job at Target and then I got another job at Kids “R” Us. And so, I had a job and I had friends, and when she asked me to leave, that meant that I had to give all of that up. My option was to move in with a great aunt, who lived maybe thirty minutes, thirty-forty five minutes away. So, I was devastated. And I didn't felt safe staying with my grandmother after she asked me to leave, so I moved in with my great grandmother. I love my great grandmother to death and she loved me, and she worried about me a lot. And sometimes that worry seemed more like smothering. So, she wanted to know my comings and goings, and in great detail. And as a sixteen-year old, I was not really inclined to share all of my business. Even with my great grandmother whom I love very much. So, it was in 1999, I had moved over to my great grandmother's house during the summer. And I was staying there until I was going to move with my great aunt. And that summer was July 4th weekend, I was sitting outside, on the sidewalk. And a man whom I’d known my entire life. He came over to chat with me. […. Interrogation] Detective: What’s this person that did this to you? What’s his name? D.J: His name is Freddie Evergin. Detective: Is Freedie a black guy or a white guy? D.J: Black guy. Detective: Last you knew of, he was living at 365 Fort Street? D.J: Yes. Detective: Alright. D.J: My great grandmother lived there, at 350 Fort Street, which is kind of more diagonal from where he lives. Her old her house that she lived in was torn down. Detective: All right. So, what happened with Freddie? […. Interrogation ends/Narration continues] I’ve known him my whole life. I believed him to be my dad my biological dad's best friend. And so, he came over to chat with me and he told me he knew what was going on in my family. And I said to him, “What do you mean?” You know of course, I knew I had been outed and kicked out, but how would he know that. And he just said, “I know what you're going through.” And it’s probably a few moments later and he leaned into me and said, “Kiss me.” And I looked at him in shock, and I was like “What do you mean to kiss you? I’m not going to kiss you.” I thought it was the weirdest thing ever. I thought he was really fucked up. I mean, I was sitting outside of my great grandparent’s house, and he was just across the street from his own house where his wife and his children sat. Why was this man asking me to kiss him? I declined and I think I turned inward, and tried to process what was happening to me at that moment and I began to shut down. I didn't really grasp what was happening. This older man, he was forty-five at the time, was approaching me inappropriately. And so instead of telling a parent, or telling a grandparent, or asking for help from an adult, I kind of just turn inward. And I remember going into the house and crying myself to sleep that night, because I thought I had done something wrong. What the hell? But that's where my mind was, you know. I had always thought that I had done something wrong. When anything would happen, you know. A lot of the times, I was told I was doing something wrong growing up in my dysfunctional family. So, of course when this man approached me and asked me to kiss him, I thought it was me. I had done something bad. And that was a lot. That was a lot. That moment was a lot. It confused me, it scared me, it frustrated me, and surprised me, and it interested me. I was curious, what did this man want with me? But little did I understand at the time. My vulnerability was probably like, you know, fireworks to him. It was exciting and alluring. He's a predator and he continued to come after me. […. Narration ends/Interrogation continues] D.J: I continued to see him because I stayed there for the entire summer. And I worked at the Town Center Mall. And he worked at Sears, at Town Center Mall. As well as for the Cobb Community Transit. So, he would either... He was a supervisor for the Cobb Community Transit. So, sometimes he would be on a bus. Sometimes he would be in the cars going a different route. But we worked across the street of each other at Town Center Mall with him at Sears and me at Kid “R” Us. And so, I ran into him when I was going to lunch at the mall. And he began communicating with me kind of the same way. And one day he offered to take me home, because we live right across the street from each other. And we pulled into his driveway, and as I try to get out, he pulled my arm. He says, “I want you to come in.” And I said, “I can’t go into your house. And he said, “You will, eventually.” […. Interrogation ends/Narration continues] Even though he had confused me, and scared me, frustrated me, I was so curious about him. Because I was sixteen, and someone was paying me attention, who wasn’t my family. And I think he took advantage of that. He took advantage of my curiosity. And I just want to say that just because I was curious doesn't mean what he did was right. I get that now. But as he continued to groom me. Meaning, you know, preparing me. For what he ultimately wanted was to have sex with me. He chalked up our experience as like a friendship, and I needed a friend. So, he would drive me home, we would go to launch, we went school shopping. We even bought matching T-shirts. It was a little bit ridiculous, now that I look back. But when he would drive me to his home, he would pull into his garage, to his little driveway area. Which was diagonal from my house and he asked me to come in. And I was reluctant, I said no the first time, I probably said no the second time. […. Narration ends/Interrogation continues] D.J: He drove me home again and asked me to come in. And I said no and when I got a car, he came to the passenger side of the car and lean over up against me and kissed me. And I went in into his house. […. Interrogation ends/Narration continues] And after that moment, I was his. He brought me into his world, you know. He molested me. He took advantage of a sixteen-year old gay kid, who was outed from a social community for being gay, outed from his family for being gay. And who was left vulnerable and scared and needed support. And he became that support. He became the person I needed most. And he relished in it. Any time he wanted me, he had me. He paged me; it didn't matter where he was, he paged me. He was at work, he was with his family, you know. He would come over and walk down the street, and ask me to meet him outside and I would meet him outside. You know, he became my number one priority. He was more important than work, he was more important than my family, he was more important than friends. You know, I had the summer to be with this man. I was trapped and then he even fuckin know it. He had created this world where it was just me, him, and some oxygen. That was about it. And of course, I didn’t get that, right. I have I felt like I was a Romeo and Juliet. You know, like he was going to come save me and I was going to run off with him. In fact, I remember asking him would he ever leave his wife for me. What sixteen-year old in their right mind ask a forty-five year old if they're going to leave their wife for them? I can tell you what sixteen-year old. One who is being abused, one who is being manipulated, one who is isolated, one who is scared, one who is traumatized. That was me! He took advantage of me, and made me his property. He had sex with me whenever he wanted. He manipulated me to believing that he was my end all and be all. And he would threaten to cut things off, knowing that I would cling to him. He was my life support. […. Narration ends/Interrogation continues] Detective: During any of this, nothing was forced. It was just consensual between you and he? D.J: I have to say it was consensual. Yes. Even though when I look back and I don’t agree with that term, but, yes. Detective: You were sixteen? D.J: I was sixteen. Detective: Based on the laws that we have worked to work with in Georgia, you know, the age of consent is sixteen. So, if you are consenting, to do that with him. It’s not violation of Georgia law. […. Interrogation ends/Narration continues] I should have had help. I think people in my family knew that something was off. I remember my great grandmother telling me I shouldn't be speaking with him. But I was gone. My mind was gone. It was all about him. And she was threatening to take that away from me, and I fought back. I fought back. I got deeper and deeper in the hole. I hid, I lied to be with him. He was like a drug. He was! He was probably the first drug. The first drug out of many. This older man made sure that I needed him. And I strongly, strongly believe that he knew exactly what he was doing, and had done it before. […. Narration ends/Interrogation continues] Detective: Did Freddie do this with any other people that you know of? D.J: I don’t know – any specific names. I know, we would drive around the neighborhood, he would see other boys my age, and tell me how they were attractive, and how he wanted them. But I don't know any of them... who those people were. And a couple years ago... I’m a therapist and an author, and I wrote about my account of what happened. I didn’t include a name or anything like that. But a cousin called me and said I know who you’re talking about. He approached me too. And I was like wow! Why didn’t you say something, you know. And I think, when someone approaches children, even if they are sixteen and statutory declare age of consent, someone who is older and is a family friend has more power. Detective: Oh yeah. I’m clear. D.J: Has more power. […. Interrogation ends/Narration continues] He orchestrated the entire relationship, and groomed me so well, that for 17 years I was unable to tell any authority about what he had done to me. That's power! That's power!! He had power over my reality. He had control of my reality. [.... Narration ends/Interrogation continues] D.J: That happened that summer. And it would happen every time I would come back to visit, cause I moved to Power Springs to start my junior year of high school. Because after I got kicked out, I needed a full-time place to stay. So I went to live with my great aunt in Powder Springs. He actually drove out there and saw me in my yard and called me and said “Oh I see you’re wearing this and other...” I’m like what? What are you doing? He's like, oh I drove by. And he would call all the time, he would page me on my pager and things settle down. Because I didn't come back to visit so often. And then I graduated from high school and I moved to Kennesaw. I started attending Kennesaw State University. That’s where I graduated from. And I had moved into an apartment up there. And one day my grandmother's had called me down here to Marietta to get some supplies for my apartment. And I told them I couldn't bear it all along on the bus. So I asked him to take me. At this time I was probably eighteen. And then he said, “Yeah! I would take you up there.” And then we went up there to my apartment. And at the time, I was in a relationship with someone. He took me into my apartment and then he did force me. Then he pushed me on my bed, he attacked me. And I didn't know the roommates at the time. I was terrified. And that was the first time that I realized that he was a predator. […. Interrogation ends/Narration continues] He forced himself on me. He told me I wanted it. He held me against my will. I felt powerless. And I'll never forget that moment. In that moment, I felt the weakest I have ever felt. But you probably won’t believe this, but I'll tell you anyway. Even when that happened, I thought that was the only thing he had done wrong. The prior two years. I didn’t think that that was bad. I was still in the grips of his reality they had created for me. That's fucked up! It wasn't until four years ago when I got into the rooms of recovery, for sexual addiction. It wasn't until then when I realized that a 45 year old does not have a relationship with a 16 year old. And I don't care what the law in Georgia says. I don't care the fact that says that, you know, at the age of sixteen you can consent to having sex with an adult. I do not give a rat's ass about that law. A 45 year old does not have sex with a 16 year old, and the 16 year old is consenting to that. I don't buy it. It's molestation. It's assault. It causes depression, anxiety, trauma, addiction. Those are all the things that happened to me as a result of what happened that summer back in 1999, and the proceeding years. That's what happened. But because I have spent the last four years working on building my self-esteem up for the first time. Recognizing that I am worthy. I have now been able to understand and accept my place as a human being worthy of love and protection. And what I had then, was manipulation and abuse. My story can help others. I believe that to be true. And that's why I'm telling you my story today. I want to help others who may find themselves in a similar situation. You don't have to deal with this in isolation. You can ask for help. You can reach out for support. You can go to the authorities. You can sit down with a detective and tell them your side. [.... Narration ends/Interrogation continues] Detective: I just want to want to make sure something is on paper. D.J: Yeah. Yeah, well. I can write this up – if something pops up with him in the future. D.J: Few years ago, I sent his wife a letter. Detective: Oh, yeah. D.J: I had sent her registered mail. Detective: Oh yeah. D.J: I’m not sure she ever got it cause, I didn't do the signature verification thing. But I never heard from her. Because she had a son that she brought into that marriage and they had a child together. He's a predator and part of my... I've been in recovery for last four years. My life kind of went downhill after all this happened. I mean, I already grew up in a dysfunctional family system, and then for this to happen, it kind of just sent me down a tailspin. Detective: I’m sorry this happened to you. D.J: You know, the average age that someone, you know, reports this is 40 years old. Detective: Yeah. I know it. It’s... D.J: And I’m turning 34 on Saturday. Detective: I worked crimes against children in the last 8 years and I’ve always said that maybe 5% of the kids that have been perped on actually ever tell anybody. D.J: Yeah. Detective: You know, we have had incidents where we discover hundreds of victims by one suspect and nobody told. D.J: Right. D.J: Right. And it’s so heartbreaking. Detective: When he approached your cousin, how old was your cousin? D.J: I don’t know. My cousin is in his 50’s. Detective: He’s older than you. D.J: He’s older than me. My dad confronted him. After I told my dad, 4 years ago. I came home I and I told my dad what happened. And he called him up on the phone, and he denied it. He said I was lying. And my dad said why and after all this years, my son come tell me a lie. What would be the purpose? And he told him he never wanted to see him again. I was probably 19, he came to my sister’s birthday party down at my dad’s house. And I didn't want to be near. I didn’t know he was coming. And I kind of went and stayed in the backyard. He kept following me the whole time. So terrifying. But I didn’t believe I could tell anyone. Detective: Yeah. D.J: It was so hard. Detective: Yeah. Well you’re doing all the right thing. You are getting it out now. I’m sure you feel better now. That’s the thing that worries me about child victims – they don’t ever tell. […. Interrogation ends/Narration continues] You can do your part to secure your life. Don't let someone else take away the fact that you are precious just the way you are. I know that I am now. And no one, no one, absolutely no one can take that away from me. Not my parents. Not Freddie. Not addiction, not drugs, not sex, not alcohol. I will fight for the rest of my life. To preserve my right to live a life worth living. And I have to move on, move forward and create, and inspire, because I am worthy. And so are you. Don't give up. Share your story. Ask for help. You are perfectly imperfect and that is okay. But you do not deserve to be hurt any longer. Thank you for taking the opportunity to listen to my story. This story is a very important story to me. It’s my truth. It’s a truth that I haven't always been able to tell. You know, when I do the work that I do, a lot of things come up and I... mainly because I work with a lot of people who have a lot of trauma. And one of the ways that I help people work through their trauma is to own their truth. And this is what I did here. I made a decision to own my truth and finally go to the cops. Yes! It had been seventeen years since the abuse happened. But I thought it was time to tell the truth. It was also important for me to make sure that the police knew this man’s name. For seventeen years, I had held it back. My family knew his name, because I told them a few years ago. But I think that the community at large needs to know his name. He's a predator. Maybe he hasn’t done it since he did it to me. Maybe he will never ever do it again. But the fact is, I will never know. My obligation is to speak my truth, and to live in recovery, and that's what I've done. I've taken the opportunity to be honest, to live honestly. And to help other people live honestly as well. I would like to share with you some behind the scenes thoughts feelings and reactions I had as I went to the police department and spoke with the detective. I took my partner with me. He went to the police station with me and we sat in the lobby after I'd checked in with the front desk and I asked for the detective. He came up and introduced himself and walked us through a locked area, he had to pass code to get back into. And we went into this other... like kind of lounge area. He asked my partner to sit out there and wait for me. And then he and I walked to... through another corridor and went into an interrogation room. And it was just like, you know, what they show in the movies. There was a glass wall, which I imagine you know, in certain cases there's people on the other side of that. There were recording devices, and there are two to three chairs. And there was a round table, and my heart was racing. I tried to make light by saying to the detective that it seemed like just like the shows that I watched like The First 48 or Forensic Files. And you know, I took a seat. He sat across from me, he put out his note pad and started writing as I talk with him. And it was interesting as I sat there and told him my truth. Because in a sense, it felt like maybe being in an interrogation room was a wrong place for me to be able to state my truth. I had always had this sense that interrogation room were for people who had done wrong, and I hadn't done anything wrong. But I assume that the interrogation room was the only place that you would take witness to report a crime. I did feel protected there. The door was shut. No one interrupted us, and I had her full attention of the detective. He was a kind guy. You know, I really appreciated him telling me about his work and the work he had done. And I really appreciated him empathizing with me. It really moved me to hear him say, “I'm sorry that you had to go through this. And I'm sorry that the laws aren't going to do anything at this point to punish this man.” And I really appreciate him showing his authenticity, by telling me how difficult that work is that he does. Now, you may not have heard all of our conversation through the taped audio that I played for you guys. But he and I had a connection. I really felt connected to this detective. It felt like he was a genuine person who wanted to help. And I can imagine him going out into the field helping other people. He had that really Southern hospitality that we all have from the South. And I can see how that can help victim of these heinous crimes speak their truth. Sometimes all we need is someone who is willing to show up and listen. And that’s what I got working with the detective on, when I went to file my police report. Some of you may ask why I did this now. Well, the honest truth is I had an opportunity. I went back to Georgia to visit my family for my birthday and I had finally come to accept that this was my truth and I needed to tell it. And having the support that I have helped me do it. Knowing that once I returned to Seattle, I could turn to my friends in recovery. I could go to meetings, I could work with my sponsors, I could work with my therapist to process anything that would have come up. That’s what gave me the strength to go in and do it, knowing that I had the support system. I strongly encourage you to have a valid support system. When I say valid, I mean people who would listen, people who you can trust. People who would not judge. People who would, you know, empathize with you. People who would validate your feelings. People who would show up when they say they would show up. People who care, people who love you. Sometimes all we need is someone to listen, someone we love, someone we trust to tell us that they understand. And I hope that each and everyone of you, has either had that experience, or would have that experience when you decide to speak your truth. Now your truth doesn’t have to sound like mine. Doesn’t have to look like mine. You don’t have to go to the police to report this crime that has happened to you. You could write about it. You could journal about it. You can tweet about it. You could write a book about it like I did. You could share about it in a meeting. Your truth can be told anyway that you oblige. Just make sure that it’s a helpful way. It won’t cause you harm, and you won’t feel regret afterwards. In preparation for this podcast I was asked, “what about the possibility of retaliation?” And that’s a valid question. The fact is I’m not concerned that he’s going to retaliate against me. The truth is, if he were to retaliate against me, he would have to answer some really difficult questions. There are dates in times that I know, names of people he interacted with. Places we had gone. I would have been able to expose all of those things in greater detail if he would have come after me. I don’t think he’s going to come after me, because I think he’s also probably quite damaged himself. I’m not sure of this, but I imagined that someone who abuses children was probably also abused. And as a personal recovery, I wish that he gets the help that he needs. You know, I understand the importance of getting help when you need it. And this is the sick person who needs that help, but it’s not my responsibility to get it to him. He has to seek it out, maybe he has. My hope is that I never have to see him, hear from him, or look at him in any capacity ever again. It’s almost a blessing and a courage that authorities won’t be able to charge him for the crime that he committed. And for the fact that they don’t even consider it a crime, I don’t have to see him again. But I do have to live with the memories. And by telling you my story today, I am letting the pain go. Every time I speak my truth, the pain lessens. I don’t have to hold on to this anymore. It’s no longer a secret. It’s all out there for the world. I can continue my life one day at a time. That’s why I’m speaking to you because I want to help you be able to do the same. I want to be able to inspire you to speak your truth and live a life worth living. You don’t have to suffer. Suffering is optional. That’s one thing I heard in recovery that forever stuck with me. I was told that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. I can move on, I can journey on. And that’s why I’m naming my podcast Journey On. Let me help you journey on too! Journey on is looking to hear from you. If you are interested in sharing your experience, strength and hope with our audience, email us atjourneyonpodcast@gmail.com for details. Journey On’s production is currently funded by me as part of my desire to provide support to those who are still suffering. Production cost fluctuate and can be prohibitive in terms of what I can offer to our audience. You can help support Journey On’s mission by supporting the production. There are two (2) options;
Don’t forget to visit journeyonpod.com and signup for my Recovery Journey Newsletter. Once you have subscribed, you will get more information about my weekend male survival retreats and my online coaching services for male survivors. Journey On is produced by D.J Burr and Recovery Legacy Network (Bringing you will recovery on all fronts). Learn more at recoverylegacynetwork.com. Today’s music features tracks by CDK and Air tone. You can learn more about the tracks on our websites on journeyonpod.com. Until next time, breathe deep and journey on.
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